Flame war on jiayo

This stuff is bad for you, I don’t recomend reading this, I jsut wanted to keep it around because of how emotionally invested I was in it at the time.

A little stuff to keep around for posterity sake. I lost a lot of sleep over this one and wrote some long, long responces that I never posted.

Either way I wanted to keep it here because that forum has a habit of loosing it’s old posts.

I started with this, in response to they way wushu was trending in the world, not just the USA. The name of the thread was “The Downfall of US Wushu”

Fuzzymonk – Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:01
I see the current changes in wushu being driven by the changes in the rules. This prevents competitors from sticking to ‘pure’ wushu and showing solid basics and simpler jumps. If you decide “this new stuff sucks, I am going to play it the old school way,” you would get rocked by the people that do what the judges want to see.

I agree with icy, if we just require a certain jibengong people could just start their form with mabu->gongbu->pubu and get it over with. I think that compulsory stances are a great idea, but the implementation needs to be clever enough to prevent embarrassment.

I am not sure what you mean by “gymnastics rules”, but I do not think going back to the old system would help, the need to standardized rules with specific guidelines for the judges is an absolute must. The old judging deferred to the personal preference angle a bit too much for a sport.

Jiayo (Brandon) – Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:27 pm

true.

so then all coaches and athletes should have equal access to information regarding the rules. officials, such as technical committee members and federation board members, should be available to explain the rules to coaches and athletes.

if athletes who are members of the national federation ask clear and specific questions about how rules are to be applied during competition, they should be given those answers.

a competition sport is also bound by something called sportsmanship.

it would have been sportsman-like to share the information that you and other Omei students were given, by Lu Xiaolin, weeks before team trials when you absolutely knew that there were other athletes that were asking Lu Xiaolin for that information and were being denied access to it.

agree or disagree? i know Peter Wolf asked you guys about it and you tried to play it off. you know i called you guys out on it on this forum right after trials and not a single one of you responded to it.

so here’s your chance to respond now. i’m asking you as a friend and a fellow competitor.
Jianshu also commented. It was this post that really pushed me to respond. He was polite, civil and to the point.

Jianshu – Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:11 pmSo what of it Chris, Stephon, et al?

There seems to be proof of some unsportsmanlike behavior to take advantage… if you were afraid to tell others, or held onto the information for your own gain (or were instructed to), why not just admit it. Time to man up. I believe you owe the other competitors that much at least, don’t you think? At least people would know that you’re honest about your role. This silence from your end is certainly damning.

If these statements were false, I imagine you certainly would have defended your position long before now…

My big response

Fuzzymnk – Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:33 pm
Brandon,

I know I am only going to regret responding. I have been advised that participating on forums like this will only bring me grief, but I was naive. Or maybe idealistic. Lets go with idealistic.

I did post responses before, however not in (what I considered) your antagonistic calling out thread. I gave (what I considered) direct answers to peter. He didn’t like my responses then, and I bet you won’t like them now. On the bright side, I do appreciate that the accusations are less vicious now than they were immediately following team trials.

I would really appreciate it if people had a problem with me to come to me directly. Calling someone out on the forum does not count in my opinion. A lack of a response on a message board is not the same as to refusing to answer. Personally, I would consider email a direct means of contact, or over the phone. I’d be more than happy to talk in person if anyone wants to come to DC. And when I get the chance to travel I’d be happy to meet you where you are.

You say we cheated because we knew rules that you did not. You had the same rule book we did (I am not trying to be a jerk here; I think this is fairly significant). In fact I went though great trouble to make sure there was an easy to read web version of it (however not official in any way). I know the specific information you are talking about, that you say was given to us by my coach, but crazy as it sounds I did not find out about this from my coach—she wasn’t even around. I found out about it from this forum. We heard news from the Canadian trials how they were deducting for improper basics but the stances without guidelines specifically laid out in the rules had no means to get deducted. Yep, verifiable a loophole. The same judges were headed to the US Team Trials so common sense said we should be prepared for the same thing to happen here. I would speculate that the IWuF officials had the final word as to the interpretation of the rules, not the federation.

But wait there is more. O-Mei was at it before we knew anything about the basics deductions. We hired an international judge and an accomplished choreographer and flew him over here form China. Something any school can do and many do, equivalent to going to China to work with the experts there on new forms. And there is no question that happens all the time. We paid him nicely to fine tune our forms (or in some cases create them from scratch). One of the many changes he made was to the basics in my forms, at the time I had no idea that it was of any significance. Nor did he specifically tell my why he changed the moves he did. In fact I found it somewhat strange and argued about the changes at times. However, it was clear at trials that people from our school who took the chorography seminars tended to score better than those who did not. In some cases with drastic results. And you know what? We all trained together, tried to help each other, and wanted the best for everyone.

I guess you could you could say some O-Mei students had an advantage over O-Mei students, although we certainly didn’t recognize it as such. Our ability or willingness to pay for additional coaching got us access to better training and better choreography, even if that didn’t include better explanations which we could then turn around and share with our teammates, friends, and fellow athletes in the broader community.

Had I avoided any attempts at serious productive discussion and stuck to the Chuck Norris jokes this would have passed with out incident.

My offer for personal conversations still stands – I want to see this sport get to a better place, just like you do.

Chris

Then we started getting helpers

blackie615 – Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:12 am Yeah I agree with fuzzy that the rules were available, but when were they available? Also, how come the people running the tournament or the judges or officials of usawkf didn’t tell how they were going to interpret the rules? This is not an accusation to you fuzzy, I’m not saying you did or did not…all I’m saying is the federation should have did whatever in their powers to not only present the rules but also tell the competitors how they were going to interpret it at team trials….free of cost i might add.

im also wondering…was the rules interpreted the same way at teams as it was at worlds…i wasnt at both but i would just like to know to clear some confusion i have.

jiayo – Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:09 am Chris,

If you are saying that Lu Xiaolin did not explicitly tell you and others, upon return from the Canadian team trials, that you should change your forms and take out certain stances and movements because she knew that the same criteria would be used at the US Team Trials…then this is not what I had interpretted from my conversations with others. If this is true, then this changes my perspective.

However, my observations would lead me to suspect otherwise. I spoke with a parent of an Omei student who made the team. This parent said that Lu Xiaolin changed her child’s form immediately prior to trials. Why would she do that?

I find it way too suspicious. I asked Lu Xiaolin straight up about the rules. I asked how deductions would be made. I asked weeks before the competition. I got no answer. The only thing I got from her was that there would be a meeting the night before team trials where the rules would be explained. Everyone shows up at the meeting and, surprise, the rules will indeed be be interpretted as the Canadian team trials were. And, suprise, most of the Omei students who make the team and received high scores have forms that have obviously been choreographed to exclude basic, fundamental techniques.

And one comment about bringing in coaches. Were the coaches that were brought in to teach forms at Ome the same coaches as those that were present at trials? Rui-Qi Zhu and Tong-Wei Liu?

Perhaps no one is guilty of anything. Perhaps everyone’s hands are clean. Perhaps I’m a complete asshole who is jealous and like’s to talk shit.

But what do you think the rest of the competitors at team trials and the rest of the world is thinking right now? People are coming to conclusions based on the information in front of them. As competitive athletes, we put ourselves out there. The entire world is watching.

9.87 dude. 9.87.

I felt like he asked questions I already answered, and tried to put words in my mouth, so I let my original post stand. Oh, I wrote a few responses. The first was 5 pages in length, but decided not to post any of them.

Trolls (aka blackie)

masterbait – Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:12 pm

So… How can you call yourself a U.S. Team Member when YOU, CHRISTOPHER, used a loophole to get on the team? This is just unrespectable. :Twisted Evil:

svninchwushu – Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:50 am
master bait- u are unrespectable.

Chris is a good person, and hard working athlete.

hes not afraid to stand by his name, why dont u do the same. I think if u posted your name- everything u said would become obviously less credible.

Lucas

yourwife – Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:49 am
whoa whoa whoa come now….that last post by master bait was not offensive..yeah fuzzy is a good person and i dont doubt he’s hard working athlete but that has nothing to do with taking advantage of a loophole as he, chris, said himself.

masterbait made an opinion and a reasonable one. he’s just not giving chris as much props for making the team and i hope people can respect that (what? i hope not everyone expects it to be a perfect world)…its much better than “you suck” or “you are gay”

svninchwushu if you think you are “better” than some people on this forum, then please dont “drop down” to their level when posting…speaking of credibility..you just lost some in my book :D

i never knew a person’s character had anything to do with their actions…good people can still do bad things…bad people can still do good things. you want the truth? i dont think you can handle the truth!!!


in my opinion chris is not very respectable simply because he knew about the so called “loopholes” but did he care to share?

svninchwushu – Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:36 am
yourwife- yet another person who refuses to ever state their name-

not impressed with your attempts to sound reasonable.

you have made it quite clear you are not sensible. you talk in cirlces. masterbait did not state a reasonable opinion. He made a disrespectful and ignorant post, as he has done before. I never claimed to be “better” – and that is another obvious attempt to apply ambigous terms in attempt to post a seemingly well organized argument- (ie. you’re typing things, but not really saying anything of importance).

“i never knew a person’s character had anything to do with their actions.” this doesnt even make sense unless its sarcasm. while ur second point about good people/bad things and vice/versa has validity, your first comment seems to be a pathetic attempt to say somthing intelligent sounding.

Lucas

why are masterbait and yourwife afraid to post their names??

yourwife – Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:59 am
1. Chris admit there was a loophole he took advantage of it and didnt share it with other athletes…i believe the word shady falls under unrespectable..if he shared it, people wouldnt be complaining about the rules in the first place…if he shared the rules how come the high scorers tended to be from omei..9.87 cmon now..no one outside of omei was close to that.

  1. masterbait made a point, you lashed out on him..why? maybe its the truth and it hurts in the a$$ to know your deity with the best aerial twist on earth doesnt really have the best aerial twist…oh i mean didnt make the team fairly, but since you are so bent on saying its an ignorant comment..you’re no different from him with comments like “master bait- u are unrespectable”

  2. i never said you were claiming to be better…read it again..it says IF…so if it doesnt apply to you no need to get your pink panties in a bunch but since you’re defensive maybe those panties are a bit too small for u

i’m glad you are so curious to find out my name but i’m not trying to play hard to get hint hint*

Jianshu – Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:06 am
Well, back to the real issue.

I respect Chris for answering the questions he was asked. If what he says is the truth, and he didn’t realize the choreographers and his coach LXL were taking advantage of a loophole until the last second, then there would be no reason to share with other athletes. If the buzz throughout their school wasn’t about how basic stances wouldn’t be used and so forth, there would be no cause to tell any other athletes beforehand. So, since information wasn’t shared in an open manner, hopefully what he has written IS the truth.

That would mean that the owness falls on LXL, who knew absolutely about the judging criteria beforehand, who changed her own students forms to fit that criteria beforehand, and who refused to answer athletes such as Brandon and Tiffany when they asked about those very judging criteria. To me, this is the worst part of the whole situation, as it is her responsibility to share this information. Information they are certainly entitled to. If she had answered the email questions outright instead of hiding that information, none of us would be having this discussion about who didn’t tell who and why.

It’s a sad day when someone with so much power, who’s job is to keep all competitors informed and on as even a playing field as possible, withholds vital information like this. She wanted her students to win? Fine. She hired choreographers to build them new routines? Fine. She wants to use her judging powers and influence to help her students receive blown up scores? That’s wrong. Sure, it’s common place in all athletics (and keeps happening at her tournaments), but that is wrong. She wants to withhold information that it is her job to share, so that her students gain such an undeniable advantage that they are virtually guaranteed a spot on the team? That’s so far beyond the line it isn’t even funny. And with all the previous actions taken care of, why is it even necessary to do this? It seems like overkill to me, and obviously complete abuse of power.

Oh and btw, my comments are not those of a jilted athlete who didn’t make the team, but arise from listening to the circumstances surrounding this and past competitions. To me, the athletes who got screwed (Brandon for instance) have every right to be up in arms.

masterbait – Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:56 am
svninchwushu wrote:
masterbait did not state a reasonable opinion. He made a disrespectful and ignorant post, as he has done before.

Reasonable opinion? All I posted was a small question… Why is an opinion needed for that? And you say I’m disrespectful? Even if I am but isn’t it more disrespectful to know how rules are implied for an important competition that only happens every two years and not share it with anyone?

Sigh…

Now that that’s over, I would still like an answer to my question.

masterbait wrote:
So… How can you call yourself a U.S. Team Member when YOU, CHRISTOPHER, used a loophole to get on the team? This is just unrespectable.

And Lucas, with all jokes aside, moderator edit

svninchwushu – Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:04 pmmasterbait- you can say anything u’d like- to my face at berkley(arnolds or east coast collegiets- but I doubt you’ll make it out to this side- hinthint).
(that goes for yourwife too). But I know you’d rather talk your shit up in your room, hiding behind your computer, thinking your cool cause other faggots from your school pat u on the back for it- they’re two faced too and we know it.

Luke

and for clarification- masterbait, your comment about chris and his respectability- was a comment, not a question (questions end with one of these (?).

masterbait – Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:35 pmRemoved by Moderator

They spat for a while and the flaming continues. Mario even makes a calling them out thread hoping to get them banned.

Replying to Jianshu’s post

jiayo – Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:31 pmif Lu Xiaolin is unable to balance her positions of:

1) coach
2) IWuF technical committee member
3) USAWKF board member
4) sometimes judge

then she should not be serving in a official capacity. if she is not making every effort to keep the system unbiased and trying to give equal access to information, then she should step down or be removed from office.

just because she didn’t act as a judge at trials, doens’t mean she didn’t leverage her power to influence the outcome.

comments?

svninchwushu – Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:23 amjust at first glance- this is speaking not as her student but as a realist (thats not an idealist), and is completely off the books-

jiayo wrote “if she is not making every effort to keep the system unbiased and trying to give equal access to information, then she should step down or be removed from office. just because she didn’t act as a judge at trials, doens’t mean she didn’t leverage her power to influence the outcome. ”

well couldn’t this be her perogitive (sp?). if one holds a position of power don’t they typically (not ideally) seek to gain from that power. I feel she is being said to do, what I presume, just about every single gymnastics, ice skating, (insert olympic sport) official- does. pull strings/provide relavent inside info. It seems like a lot of you complain about it but never really say that this is how much of the world works, why would wushu be any different?

obviously this argument is not a ‘justification’, just an observation. If this were the case it wouldn’t make everything ok. Im just making a point.

Luke

Im not trying to get flamed. This was not in any way representive of LXL, just a thought I had in reading brandons post.

jiayo – Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:53 am that’s an interesting post, lucas.

for the past few months, i’ve been requesting access to the USAWKF by-laws. i’ve asked specifically how board members are elected/appointed. so far, the USAWKF has given me no answers.

the reason i bring this up is this:
if there are no rules or laws that Lu Xiaolin or any other board member is breaking…is what they are doing wrong or right? if they are not breaking any local, state or federal laws…is there anything that can be done?

then, it’s only a question of morality, sportsmanship, and fairness. (though, i would argue, these are big things)

no one is forcing us to be members of the USAWKF. no one is forcing us to go to team trials. we could simply say “fuck it” and not have anything to do with them.

the only issue is: if you want to represent your country at Worlds, you MUST be a member of the USAWKF and you must compete at team trials.

We get trolls of our own! Nice polite ones. This one quoted my post.
Chavarria – Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:50 pm
I don’t call that cheating. I call it being smart.
You know you would have done the same so stop picking on Chris!
You people are just jealous of his accomplishment at worlds. admit it?

And right nwo jianshu has the final word:

Jianshu – Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:26 pm Well, since I didn’t compete, I would certainly not say that I’m interested in this topic due to jealousy. This concerns the future of US wushu and every competitor outside of their school. That is why I’m interested.

The main issue here is, people were trying to find out if the Omei students had an unfair advantage. An advantage given to them (explicitly or not) by their coach. Their coach who happens to be in charge of the organization. Their coach who’s job it is to disseminate crucial information such as this, to all athletes. Especially ones who SPECIFICALLY asked for it weeks prior to the competition.

IT IS THEIR RIGHT TO KNOW THESE DETAILS PRIOR TO COMPETITION. No, I don’t mean less than 12 hours before competition. Is that plain enough for you? As a head official and organizer it is simply wrong to withhold this information. PERIOD.

So the reason Chris was asked about this is because it seemed he, as a fellow competitor should share this information too, if asked, in the spirit of sportsmanship. He replied fully to the questions saying he did not know about said judging criteria beforehand. So if that’s truly the case, no, he morally shouldn’t need to share the info.

As to your comment about us all doing that same, that is complete BS. Brandon and the rest of the people here did their utmost to share all information they had. Did they have to do that? No. But in the spirit of community here, it was the right thing to do.

Not everyone does the right thing. I think we’ve heard what you would do in the same situation, Chavarria. Which could be exactly the thing pulling US wushu down.

I respect you for trying to stand up for Chris, but I think he’s doing just fine on his own.