OK, this has inspired me to avoid any posting on any wushu politics for whatever reason. I don’t recomend that anyone read it, but I want to keep it for my personal records.
It all stared with marco’s strife inducing post
Raffi, yo I was wondering… what do the results in Long Fist say about the judging for the U.S. Team trials? For example, Justin And Stephon getting 8.8 and 8.78 vs Dyra getting into 9.10… Does it really say anything about the judging or do we have to wait for the videos to say for sure?
Which would have been fine, but he (and those after) kept citing “Justin and Stephan” directly. They all agreed that cheating was a well known fact and wanted to know what we thought. So Raffi said, “Goh/LXL apologists? I’d like to hear your take on it.”
I thought about it for a while. Wrote stuff up and delted it. Decided that I needed to say something (which was my biggest mistake) and said:
I think that we should support ALL our athletes.
I see loads of support for DY — which he deserves — but let’s support all our athletes. As far as I could tell that ATHEATES that went to team trials came away with one voice to unite the US wushu world. Weather they made the team or not.
Or is that a lost cause?
They took this to mean that I wanted to ignore the contraversy and pretend it never happened. I didn’t want support for the WKF, just the atheates. To stop citing their names everytime they had a complaint.
So raffi said
I realize you are classmates with Justin, Stephon, et al, but please realize that when we are pointing out their scores, its not to attack them, its to attack the F’ed up team trials that gave them 9.4s and said they were the best wushu athletes in the USA.
No one says they’re not gifted athletes, no one says they don’t train hard, no one says they’re not trying their best at worlds. what people ARE saying is that the Team Trials, run by Goh, hosted by LXL was BAD! This is proof of it.
The trials said Stephon and Justin were several points higher than everyone else at trials (like DY), it would appear that the World’s scores disprove that.
It said that Stephon and Justin, and Jessica and several others were 9.3 and 9.4 level athletes, as it claimed to use IWuF standards. This has been disproven as well…
If its not picking the best people, if its not giving fair scores for each division, then what the hell does it do? (besides populate the team with 75%-87% Omei students!)
Me:OK, I wrote about 10 responses with arguments about that fairness of team trials, reasons why we shouldn’t hold to this one (very suspicious, I know) incident, and even reason why everyone needs to kiss Nadir’s backside — but they were all dead points that no one is going to change their POV on so I settled on trying to disassociate my classmates with controversy.
Upsets happen all the time in the world of sports; this is not that unusual or even statistically strange.
Apparently using the word ‘upset’ means “sorry loosers, learn to cheat better”
Marco’s Troll Bait
Excuse me if I misunderstood your statement, but are you basically
saying it is OK for your school and your teacher to get away with what
they’ve done cause “hey shit happens?” hmm.. I had a tough time
understanding how people from Omei could deal with the fact that they
are on the team because of the corruption and politics, and the only
justification i could come up with was that they just were unaware of
it. But now it seems you turn around and are telling us “hey ya! We
know our school cheats, we know we are taking advantage of the system,
but you know what? We don’t care. cause hey! shit happens!”
That is what I understood from you saying “Upsets happen all the time
in the world of sports; this is not that unusual or even statistically
I’m going to have to assume that you do not represent the view of your
teammates, as I’m hoping your teammates are more aware and morally
concious than you seem to be.
My desprate attempt at clearing my name:
Should I also excuse you for directly stating that I am without morals?
I was at team trials, and I do not claim that the scores were on the same scale as the world games, but as a person who was there and competed I do believe that the order people got placed on the team was mostly fair. I heard many groups complain about it, and understood their arguments but the overall impression I got from the athletes I spoke with was within the divisions it was run fairly. If one person got screwed on deductions on sword, we all did. This argument is apparently forgotten because you are speaking like it absolutely decided that my coach cheated to get our athletes ahead. Do you know how badly I want to jump into the group of people that were hanging out on the bleachers talking about how the white people were getting screwed (I kid you not, they were quite serious), I was very tempted to blame the “anti-white conspiracy” for the 1/100 of a point that I needed to make the team.
You act that you are certain that my coach cheated at trials. You state it as fact. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree. As a person who has been on both sides of this controversy I feel like I have a pretty well rounded point of view. Also as a person who has seriously trained with Lu Xiao Lin and her students I feel like I have a very good understanding of what goes on. I honestly believe that she did everything she could to make things not only appear to be fair, but they actually were. I have no reason to believe that she has done anything with these team trials that could be considered immoral. And the more speak with her about these attacks on her character, the more I want to defend her.
Do I think there were issues with team trials? Yes. Stuff that the USAWKF desperately needed to fix? Absolutely. Some of the stuff that went on was so messed up, but I do think Lu Xiao Lin acted morally the entire time. I understand how things look bad, I really do, but I am confident with my conclusions. Do I think team trials were completely fair and objective? Well, is not the issue, however I believe my school did not contribute to any skewing of the results. And yes, Raffi, I think 9.4 was too high. Just like when I said it before.
With that said, lets revisit my desire to “disassociate” the athletes with the controversy. They are my friends, and the worked hard to get where they are (which, I feel they deserved, so please take that into consideration before calling me an evil person) – and I simply didn’t want to see their names dragged through the mud. That is all.
I shouldn’t have said anything about the upset, it was unrelated to the rest of my post, but I tried to refer to other parts of the thread. I was simply trying to go along with the idea that Phil-the-agony said in his post. Maybe they didn’t train between trials and worlds, maybe DY simply rocked, maybe they were injured, maybe they had bad Chinese. I am not trying to say all things in July were fair. I was not trying to rub your face in it. I was NOT saying I condone any cheating or other morally despicable actions.
I do not understand how you took my post to mean what you said, or why you decided that I was amoral and generally all around evil. Let’s see: I admitted to understanding your suspensions and even made a joke about Nadir (which I hope he took differently than you did). Then I tried to stand up for my friends. And mistakenly (read the above paragraph) tried to tack on the ‘upset’ part saying “hey, it could happen.” (When I wrote that all I could think of was “what are the chances that VT could loose to West Virginia and beat Miami”)
I knew I should have posted anonymously. This is depressing and now I am stuck defending my character to the same bunch of people I have stuck up for in the past.
That is pretty much the end of it, but I am gonna keep a few more for my own edification.
But the point is its NOT an upset!
As we’ve mentioned, this is exactly what we knew and predicted would happen. Its only an upset if you deluded yourself into thinking they were 9.4 level people in the first place.
But again, you can’t just say ‘can’t we all get along?’ and try to disassociate yourself from the controversy while simultaneously reaping the rewards from your unfair advantage.
(its akin to saying ‘yes, segregation is bad, but please stop mentioning it to me.’ as you continue to patronize your all-white southern lunch counter).
Why not help rectify the problem instead of just benefiting from it?
It is an “upset” if you consider the scores that were received at team trials, instead of your prediction. So on paper it was an “upset.” You just defined it differently.
animaljams (to raffi’s post)
So I have been reading this website over the past few months since the US team trials. I never had any intention to voice my opinion because I truly felt that people are going to believe what they want to believe and changing one’s opinion is most times incredibly difficult if not impossible. I am not even sure what opinion it is I would like to change. What I do know is that, I love wushu. It seems to me that everyone that visits this message board carries the same sentiment. Am I wrong? You all love it too, if not you would not be so passionate in your views. Having passion for something it the greatest gift ever. We are so lucky to be able to participate in something we feel so strongly about. I have only been introduced to the world of wushu for one year. Oh how often I wish I had known as a young person. But that doesn’t stop me and I hope that never stops anyone who finds something they love.
It seems so easy to take someone’s words and misconstrue them to sound as if they are saying something they are not. Clearly fuzzymonk was sending a positive message regarding the wushu community and how all of the athletes who love the sport should support one another. This actually did happen for some brief moments in July in Virginia. I heard JIA YOU from both coasts even when athletes from opposing coasts were on the floor. I hate to even use the term opposing when referring to athletes representing the same nation. I don’t mean to seem idealistic. I do realize in my short time in this community that the past holds strife in regards to the federation. I was not here so I do not pretend to understand the impact this strife had on any athletes. I do know that many people wanted the leader of the federation to be removed. It seems to me that by association a coach from the east coast was dragged into it, which seems to have directly impact her students. It is like a domino. Guilty by association. How extremely closeminded and unfair. I know that we all watch wushu from other countries and commend the athletes that we think are sick. Why is it that we can’t do that for our own athletes. It seems to me that we as a community have spent so much energy concentrating on negativity and victimism. What about all the great things that have happened. More participation in the sport, some united love after a great competition. These are the things we should focus on. Positive reinforcement leads to future positive behaviors.
Those from either coast that have spent any time trying to understand the other have seen similar qualities and that same passion in each other. Written words are final. If something is documented and in the future the opportunity arises to develop a relationship or a kinship with a fellow athlete who those words have been directed at then it will be difficult to take those words back.
I am sure SCWA,OMEI,USWA and all other schools, I apologize to not name all, athletes love wushu with the same heart and soul. I am also sure no one is saying that they want issues to continue. I truly hope regardless of scoring that no one believes that the best athletes from the US weren’t on the team and currently representing the US in Macau. Of course disregarding Cheri(sp), who made a choice to pursue a wonderful opportunity. Those that did not get the opportunity to compete as a US team member, I hope you are training even harder now for the next opportunity. Seize each as if it is your only one.
In closing I would like to say congratulations to DY who has stepped up to the occasion and clearly put it on the floor. I would also like to congratulate Stephon for his performance in SS and Jessica for her SS as well. The courage of all athletes to compete at a world class level is admirable and to say that you are in the top ten in the world is an incredible honor.
‘Someone asked me what it would take to convince skeptics of my innocence. I answered, “I don’t know.” I was beginning to think I would be presumed guilty for the rest of my life.
Everything I had worked so hard for, my career, my reputation, what I’d done as an athlete, everything I had could go away, all the things you lose when people don’t think your a good guy.
But there is one thing you can’t lose, and that’s yourself. I had my own innocence; that was something no one could mess with.’
- something they are not. Clearly fuzzymonk was
- sending a positive message regarding the wushu
- community and how all of the athletes who love the
- sport should support one another.
As I said in my last message, of course those who benefit from an unfair system want people to pipe down, to ‘just get along’ and not speak negatively, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by being on the receiving end of an unfair system.
Try being on the other end of that equation and have someone say “oh, its OK, let’s be positive! stop complaining about the screw job you got!” would you roll over and give up?
In other words “positivity” doesn’t do anything to change the system, the system is flawed and it needs changing (if you don’t train at Omei). Being positive just let’s it perpetuate for another 2 or 4 years.
- This actually did
- happen for some brief moments in July in Virginia.
- I heard JIA YOU from both coasts even when athletes
- from opposing coasts were on the floor.
Sure, because as I’ve said, its not a personal issue between individuals. Its about an unfair system that favors some and SCREWS others.
But I heard a lot of disgruntled athletes who spent hundreds of dollars to go to trials, just to watch certain athletes getting absurdly high scores, allowing those people to get a spot on the team they didn’t earn.
- to seem idealistic. I do realize in my short time
- in this community that the past holds strife in
- regards to the federation. I was not here so I do
- not pretend to understand the impact this strife had
- on any athletes. I do know that many people wanted
- the leader of the federation to be removed. It
- seems to me that by association a coach from the
- east coast was dragged into it, which seems to have
- directly impact her students. It is like a domino.
- Guilty by association. How extremely closeminded
- and unfair.
Not at all. I completely disagree.
You really should look into the reasons for the strife before you talk on this subject maybe. You admit you’re knowledge of the past is limited, therefore you should be careful about drawing closeminded and unfair conclusions about things.
LXL isn’t an innocent bystander by any means. As a matter of fact, it was her nomination for an IWuF position by Goh against the Board’s wishes that was the straw that broke the camels back and led to the WKF Board’s vote to remove Goh. (and think about possible reasons why the board didn’t nominate her).
After the so-called ‘coup’, in an attempt to bolster his support Goh placed LXL (and Martha Burr believe it or not!) to Board positions, two of his most loyal supporters. Fortunately for all of us, Goh’s own lawyer told him this was illegal, (this doesnt’ get mentioned by Emperor Goh very often).
But even before 1999, LXL was caught cheating on behalf of her students. I would point you to the 1997 Nationals incident where LXL was acting as a head judge and conveniently forgot to deduct her star student Clara Shen for being short of time. It caused a big brouhaha ultimately requiring the higher officials to over rule her and force her to follow the rules. (these are facts). She has a long track record of abusing her position to favor her own students.
And since 99? You get the 2001 team trials and the 2003 team trials where LXL’s students get absurdly high scores (9.4’s!!!!) and then go to worlds and do not achieve anywhere near that score. Anyone who’s been paying attention can see this is just BS… US athletes should not be getting a 9.4 no matter who’s student they are.
Goh and LXL work hand in hand, one hand washes the other, she is by no means an innocent bystander who’s caught up in this. Talk to more people and look at some of the old entries on the news here to get more information about this before you jump to any conclusions.
If nothing she is benefiting from an unfair system just like the Omei students are. Why isn’t she demanding more fairness in competitions? Why isn’t she recusing herself from these events? Think about it.
- I know that we all watch wushu from
- other countries and commend the athletes that we
- think are sick. Why is it that we can’t do that for
- our own athletes. It seems to me that we as a
- community have spent so much energy concentrating on
- negativity and victimism.
Are you sure you’re from America? Cause last time I checked we value contrary viewpoints and embrace dissence, rather then persecute it, suppress it or otherwise pretend that its not going on.
It reminds me on an anecdote from a book reading of Iris Chang’s book on the “Rape of Nanjing” someone stood up and said “why are you talking about this negative stuff? we should all get along, we don’t want non-asians to think we area all bad people who do stuff like this!” (this is the popular ‘let’s sweep the injustice under the rug so the neighbors don’t find out about it). — easier said then done if you’re Chinese.
- What about all the great
- things that have happened. More participation in
- the sport, some united love after a great
- competition. These are the things we should focus
- on. Positive reinforcement leads to future positive
Yeah, look at all the great advances we had since 2001! oh wait, I don’t hardly see any… Good Nationals? nope! Judges training? Nope. Regional Qualifiers? nope! An organized national body? nope! Any others? Let’s see…. remember when they forgot to invite US team members who weren’t omei students to the so-called “US Team demo” in Salt Lake City? remember when they gave them 1 week’s notice on Pan Am games? no you probably don’t remember that….
And now after 2003? WKF blew its last chance… lots of people trained REALLY hard for team trials, spent a lot of money and now harbor a LOT of resentment (not because they didn’t make it, because they felt like they got shafted despite how they did). They don’t want to try another trials, don’t want to even do competitive wushu anymore.
This is progress? You haven’t been in this sport very long if you don’t see a pattern here.
- I truly
- hope regardless of scoring that no one believes that
- the best athletes from the US weren’t on the team
- and currently representing the US in Macau. Of
HAVE YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION? that’s exactly what we are talking about! We all surely DO NOT BELIEVE that the best athletes were on the US Team exactly because of scoring! The friggin’ scores prove what we have predicted! DY was last of the 4 people on the A team, yet he is doing HEAD AND SHOULDERS better then the two who were 1 and 2 (I haven’t seen all of Jason Liu’s results).
If the scoring at trials could be said to be at all fair and that’s the way the trials results ended up, then no one could complain, but we have seen in black and white that the scores given to people at trials were not at all correct. The scores that got those people on the team are suspect, therefore their legimacy as ‘the best athletes in the US’ is ENTIRELY under attack.
- Those that did not
- get the opportunity to compete as a US team member,
- I hope you are training even harder now for the next
- opportunity. Seize each as if it is your only one.
Dude, you are really idealistic, that’s great, I don’t mean to dissuade your enthusiasm, but look at it from the other side. Let’s say you train your ASS OFF for 2 years preparing for what might be your LAST shot for the games, there is no next opportunity. You try your hardest and you find out that all your hard work is worthless because they’re handing out 0.2 bonuses to people who’s coaches are hosting the trials. Training harder will only get you so far. It was able to get DY on the team, and thats it. What about the Joe Scarcellas, the Phil Dangs, the Mark Musashis, the Brandon Sugiyamas, the Dary Saos?
These people played by the rules, tried their hardest and got screwed over by a system stacked against them from the beginning. Think about that when you tell people to pipe down and stop raining on Stephon and Justin’s parade…
Overall it’s not that bad, and I do give Raffi credit for making good points — Marco on the other hand was just trolling and insulting. Both missed my point, and I understand why, and learned my lesson. Of course I am sure I have been branded another sean marshall (agh), which on that peticular message board is about as bad as it gets. BUT, it is still just a message board and I need to realize that it really dosen’t matter. That lance armstrong quote sums up exactly how I feel.