Untitled

Sorry to do this AGAIN, but I am just throwing this in here for safe keeping. If you read Raffi’s board you have already read this. If not, then it’s long and boring and prolly of very little interest.

I had a little thread on Raffi’s board with Javonne — I wanted to save it for posterity sake. Plus when it got the point that he was calling me a clown I felt that replying on the board wasn’t gonna do me any good. Because we all know that the one thing wushu needs it to have money thrown at it. Any can survive with proper marketing and lots of money behind it. Like the XFL. Not that I am still hung up on it, so I will just cut-n-paste for now. If you want to add something to this, by all means.

I did, honestly gain a better understanding because of the discussion, and I was happy to be involved in one that A) was actually useful and B) didn’t involve any

RE: zero tolerence on unprofessionalism….YES …!!!
JaVonne
Posted On 08/12/03 01:10PM

TALK IS CHEAP.
THOSE THAT ARE IN CONTROL ARE LAUGHING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

They say...
what can they do? Nothing... just go to the events spends their money, take the silly little FAKE gold, silver and bronze medal and go home.

MEANWHILE: Their making money, building THERE names AND GIVE NOTHING BACK.

THE GAME ISN'T ABOUT "THE COMPETITION" ANYMORE IT ABOUT ... THE ~~~> M O N E Y!!!!"

THOSE THAT HAVE IT (AND SHARE IT) ARE SUCCESSFUL AND THOSE THAT DON'T ARE NOTHING BUT A FART IN A WINDSTORM.

LET'S LOOK AT A COMPETITION....

200-300 (IF THEIR LUCKY) ATHLETES AT $60.00 - $100.00 DOLLARS PER PERSON.

Gross ~$18,000 - $30,000

1. Hotel
2. Event ~ arena ect.
3. Teachers, coaches, judging expense.

(This is the only sport where the judges, teachers and coaches make more money than the athletes!!!)

4. RARE BUT IT HAPPENS ~~~~~>Elite athlete expense (travel /sometime hotel expenses)
5. Transportation expense (Wushu carpet, Ring materials ~ tape, Teitai platform, and paper work ect. & MASTERS FROM AIRPORT ECT.)
6. Clean up expense
7. Competition dinner and awards
8. Employee expense (Those that collect money and see to a smooth competition. "let's call this the people behind the scene."
I know theirs more...beacuse their not giving it to the athletes!!!!lol

ANY-WAY>>>!! After it is all said and done, they come out with a few grand to pay bills.

THIS IS WHAT PROMOTERS WINE ABOUT... AND TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH........... IT MAKES ME SICK!!

THE FUNNY THING IS THEIR HAPPY MAKING THE CHUMP CHANGE ...AND THEY WON'T DO ANYTHING TO IMPROVE THIS "SAD" SITUATION. YEAR AFTER YEAR, IT'S THE SAME O'L THING. WINE, WINE WINE, BLA BLA, BLA,.........AND STILL No meetings, no news letters, NO NATIONAL PROMOTION...no unity...no nothing!

Change isn't given...PEOPLE TAKE IT!

IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY...

PREPARE FOR 2004 WUSHU COMPETITION SEASON.

TALK TO YOUR FELLOW STUDENTS ~ AND OPEN THIER EYES !!
TALK TO FUTURE MARTIAL ATHLETES AND OPEN THEIR EYES !!
TALK TO YOUR TEACHERS ~ OPEN THEIR EYES!!
TALK TO YOUR COACHES ~ OPEN THEIR EYES !!

GET ON THE PHONE AND...!!!

TALK TO YOUR PARENTS ~ OPEN THEIR EYES !!
TALK TO YOUR LOCAL UNIVERSITIES ~ GET THEIR OPINION.
TALK TO YOUR LOCAL HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST GROUP ~ GET THEIR ADVICE.

RECORD EVERYTHING YOU HEAR, YOU SAY, AND YOU DO!!

TRAIN AS HARD AS YOU CAN...BEACUSE ONLY THE BEST (ALL AROUND WUSHU/ SANSHOU / TAIJI / TRADITIONAL SYSTEMS..ECT.....HAVE THE LOUDEST AND STRONGEST VOICES.)

AND MOST OF ALL...
DON'T BARK AT THOSE IN POWER. (WITH EYES WIDE SHUT ~ They have set their course.)

IT IS UP TO US TO TAKE THIS SPORT TO THE NEXT LEVEL AS WE LEARN FROM THERE MISTAKES.

Remember: power isn't given ... you take it!

Hey, it's the American way!

JaVonne Holmes

And I asked “What amateur sports do the athletes make more than the coaches?”, and dutifully he responded with NASKA and NBL. So….
RE: zero tolerence on unprofessionalism….YES …!!!
fuzzymonk
Posted On 08/14/03 07:55AM

Continued from: http://boards.gamers.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=raffi&id=zxzeg

-Here’s two…..
-1. NASKA (north american sport karate association)
-2. NBL (national black belt league)

Huh? Your saying an athlete gets paid more in NASKA than a coach does? Even the best sponsored teams (say, TPM) only get their tournament fees and travel covered. The only money they pocket is if they win a grands at some big 5 star tournament.

But it would appear from the message that you are talking in the context of the tournament only. So I'll ignore that sponsorships stuff aforementioned, and only think about that the tournament organizers pay for.

I think tournaments should pay the Judges (not coaches, not teaches) to provide their service -- which tends to not happen in NASKA, and results in the quality judging they paid for. The I personally think the athletes should not be paid, and the same for their coaches/teachers.

I see the NASKA and NBL tournaments as much bigger waist of time and money than any of the Chinese Martial Art events I have competed it. I am sure there are bad ones too, but I definitely see sport karate events are ripping more people off.

Also, being a person who has organized a tournament I understand how easy it is to loose money on it, much less break even or make a profit. Unless you have the resources of a university (which I did when I organized the tournament) I see a huge potential for loss. I just can't see the tournament gig as a great way to make money, but more a big financial risk and one bad even could ruin the promoters (assuming they are a nice little mom-n-pop martial arts school) -- otherwise, why don't we throw together a few big tournaments and get the money we need to promote our sport proper.

-IT IS UP TO US TO TAKE THIS SPORT TO THE NEXT
-LEVEL AS WE LEARN FROM THERE MISTAKES

Yes'yes we should =)

Lets figure out how to do these things right, and do them. But there is nothing good in ignoring the reality about the finances. Then again some wushu school are going inexplicably well and the owners are rewarded with, say, an s600.

And then:

RE: zero tolerence on unprofessionalism….YES …!!!
JaVonne
Posted On 08/14/03 02:58PM

fuzzymonk wrote:


– Huh? Your saying an athlete gets paid more in NASKA
– than a coach does? Even the best sponsored teams
– (say, TPM) only get their tournament fees and travel
– covered. The only money they pocket is if they win

– a grands at some big 5 star tournament.

~~~~~~~~> Correct. Chinese/wushu competition promoters pay judges and coaches (that judge) cold hard cash. While the athletes get a pat on the back and a silly little medal.

THINK ABOUT IT. THEY HAVE MONEY TO GIVE TO THESE JUDGES. Come-on..., THEY THOUGHT ABOUT IT, SET this ca$h ASIDE, AND THEN GAVE IT TO THEM ON THE SLIDE. And to tell you the truth, it sucks!

THINK ABOUT IT....

>give the money to the athletes and more athletes will attend.
>the more athletes that attend the more money you make.

  • But it would appear from the message that you are
  • talking in the context of the tournament only.

    Correct.

  • I think tournaments should pay the Judges (not

  • coaches, not teaches) to provide their service —
  • which tends to not happen in NASKA, and results in
  • the quality judging they paid for.

    The I personally

  • think the athletes should not be paid, and the same
  • for their coaches/teachers.
    ~~~~~> Hey, only the best come out for the cash. If you want to make money; you need to fill the stands. You want to fill the stands;you need to give them something to see. They don’t want to see judges THEY WANT THE BEST…AND THE BEST WANT CASH.

  • I see the NASKA and NBL tournaments as much bigger

  • waist of time and money than any of the Chinese
  • Martial Art events I have competed it. I am sure
  • there are bad ones too, but I definitely see sport
  • karate events are ripping more people off.

    oH YES, but then-again…look at the quality of the athletes in a NASKA event and then, look at the quality of the athlete at a Wushu competition. NASKA blows them away… and this is all due to the money. NASKA and NBL hell… their smart, build, promote, sell, and pay champions.

  • Also, being a person who has organized a tournament

  • I understand how easy it is to loose money on it,
  • much less break even or make a profit. Unless you
  • have the resources of a university (which I did when
  • I organized the tournament) I see a huge potential
  • for loss. I just can’t see the tournament gig as a
  • great way to make money, but more a big financial
  • risk and one bad even could ruin the promoters
  • (assuming they are a nice little mom-n-pop martial
  • arts school) — otherwise, why don’t we throw
  • together a few big tournaments and get the money we
  • need to promote our sport proper.

~~~~~~~>Martial arts competitions IF PROMOTED… RIGHT! Do make money. HEY, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MONEY YOU HAVE TO SPEND MONEY. BuT ON TOP OF THIS YOU MUST HAVE A “ LONG TERM PLAN,” NOT A ONE HIT WOUNDER.
Someone else jumped in with a nice little example
RE: zero tolerence on unprofessionalism….YES …!!!
Bi-Ying
Posted On 08/14/03 04:07PM

  • ~~~~~~~~> Correct. Chinese/wushu competition
  • promoters pay judges and coaches (that judge) cold
  • hard cash. While the athletes get a pat on the back
  • and a silly little medal.

    Wushu Union partially reimburses judges for their travel and lodging expenses. That’s it.

    In the future, we’d like to give more prizes that the two $500 grand champs. But you can’t have a competition at all if you don’t have any judges.

    Don’t you think we can find a balance between compensation of event officials and prizes for comeptitors? I’m not saying it should be even, but you need to have both of them or you’re not going to have a competition at all.

    D

come on now….

JaVonne

Posted On 08/15/03 08:49AM

Bi-Ying wrote:
  • Wushu Union partially reimburses judges for their

    – travel and lodging expenses. That’s it.

~~~~~~>REIMBURSES… PAY THEM MONEY …WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE. YOU GIVE THEM MONEY! Which is nice. Judges should get paid. Not just to judge, but’ FOR FAIRNESS AND THE QUALITY OF THEIR WORK – LIKE IN ANY OTHER JOB.

  • In the future, we’d like to give more prizes that
  • the two $500 grand champs. But you can’t have a
  • competition at all if you don’t have any judges.

~~~~~~>WE LIKE’DON’T “LIKE” …JUST DO IT!

Yes, you've assisted athletes with prize money. That's nice. Not a good or great thing...just nice. If you really love the sport next year you'll give out a $1000.00 and have more than one competition. NO, IF, AND's...OR BUT's about it ...simply'JUST DO IT!

THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO GET $3000.00 - $6000.00 IF YOU PLAN "TODAY" not TOMMORROW, or A FEW MONTHS BEFORE THE COMPETITION... COME ON NOW...WE KNOW HOW IT WORKS.... BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. THOSE THAT PLAN AHEAD AND WORD AT IT DAILY, GET AHEAD (AT THIS STAGE IN THE GAME) AND THOSE THAT DON'T SAY THINGS LIKE.... IF...and... WE LIKE TO...OR...SHOULD.

And by the way...A PROMOTER CAN 'CREATE' JUDGES.... we all know that... BUT YOU CAN'T CREATE/DRAW THE COMPEDITORS YOU NEED TO MAKE YOUR COMPETITIONS A GRAND EXPERIENCE FOR EVERYONE.
  • Don’t you think we can find a balance between
  • compensation of event officials and prizes for
  • competitors?

    YEeeS… YOU CAN! BUT YOU… WON’T or shall I say YOU DON’T. ‘OR MAYBE YOU CAN’T’Just a thought’‘’‘’‘’.

    I’m not saying it should be even, but

  • you need to have both of them or you’re not going to
  • have a competition at all.

    YOUR MAKING THINGS HARD FOR YOURSELVES, IT TAKES TWO YEARS (TWO COMPETITION SEASONS) TO PRODUCE THE EFFECTS YOU NEED TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.

    1ST ~ YOU MUST “CREATE” A 5 YEAR PLAN AND STICK TO IT.
    2ND ~ YOU MUST “EXSPAND” YOUR TARGET AUDIENCE.
    3RD ~ YOU MUST “GIVE” THOSE THAT ATTEND YOUR EVENT A REMEMBERABLE EXPERIENCE.
    4TH ~ YOU MUST “LOCATE” AND “PROMOTE” YOUR BEST ATHLETES, NOT THE ONES YOU LIKE.
    5TH ~ YOU MUST “REACH-OUT” AND “INFORM” YOUR COMMUNITY (TARGET AUDIENCE/ GENERAL PUBLIC) ABOUT WHAT’S HAPPENING IN THEIR TOWN/CITY MARTIALALLY.

    I have many great tools that you can use to assist you in this endeavor. MOST OF THEM I’VE LEARNED FROM MARTIAL ORGANIZATIONS LIKE:

    KRANE ~ A New England based martial art competition promoters > the true founders of NASKA.
    PKL ~ The Professional Karate League which was founded by a Chinese martial artist.
    NASKA ~ Well we all know them and their success!
    NLB ~ The National Black Belt League.
    USWKF ~ and our own…United States Wushu Kungfu Federation.

    BUT MOST OF ALL , I THINK IT’S MY 12 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AS A GROUP AND PERSONAL TRAINIER, WITHIN THE HEALTH AND FITNESS INDUSTRY; ATTENDING SEASONAL FITNESS TESTINGS, WORKSHOPS, CONFERENCES; MISS FITNESS, BODY BUILDING COMPETITIONS, GYMNASITCAND YOUTH ATHLETIC EVENTS THAT HAS EHANCED MY PERCEPTION, MY VISION, MY VIEW”

    Javonne

you also can’t have a successful competition without lots of competitors.
bao3sheng1
Posted On 08/14/03 04:37PM

sheer number of competitors is the difference in being able to pay competitors and judges alike (as well as make money for the promotor). at the current time, even in the best of situations, wushu doesn’t have the raw numbers that naska and nbl competitions do.

If you love NASKA so much why don’t you marry her???
fuzzymonk
Posted On 08/14/03 09:33PM

It is a her, isn't it?

yeah, i’d be great if we could fill the stands and make wushu a spectator sport, but I don’t see that happening unless we first get to the level that, say, gymnastics has. And they are a FAR cry from a spectator sport. But the do have world wide acceptance and a strong following (of fanatical parents, with delusions of olympic greatness)

But there are not professional gymnasts (like there ice skaters), those people tend to move onto other performing arts — which in a sense is the natural progression of their career. Or, coaching — which is a given. Very similar to how a wushu career could progress.

I don’t think wushu will ever get mainstream acceptance here, especially if you consider that in china, Where they have the talent and the funding (and well organized tournaments), but you ask anyone on the street their favorite wushu athlete and they say Jet Li or they change the subject to Yao Ming.

How else are the stands gonna get filled up? Maybe mainstream acceptance is a lofty goal, but we need a niche greater than our parents and friends to come out and cheer.

Even that acceptance isn’t gonna be had by throwing money at it. Nor is bribing the best to come show off. Especially in the long term. If we want to promote wushu the effective way is to get people (well, kids) into it. Start ‘em off young, I loved the idea of the summer camp — now lets breed a new generation of coaches and who can organize proper and do things right. (props for Jeff and Co. for helping that thing out, BTW)

Hrmmm, maybe we need some bboy-style wushu battles. just compete for respect! =)

-C
Stay on target….
PLEASSSEE… Clown….You better ask somebody!!
JaVonne
Posted On 08/15/03 10:12AM

I'll be nice......for now...

fuzzymonk wrote:

– It is a her, isn’t it?

  • yeah, i’d be great if we could fill the stands and
  • make wushu a spectator sport, but I don’t see that
  • happening unless we first get to the level that,
  • say, gymnastics has. And they are a FAR cry from a
  • spectator sport. But the do have world wide
  • acceptance and a strong following (of fanatical

    – parents, with delusions of olympic greatness)

~~~~~~>bla..bla…blaaaaabla..bla..bla. This is the same ol crap.

  • But there are not professional gymnasts (like there
  • ice skaters), those people tend to move onto other
  • performing arts — which in a sense is the natural
  • progression of their career. Or, coaching — which
  • is a given. Very similar to how a wushu career could

    – progress.

    ~~~~~~>That’s because their boring! AND their physical actions do more harm to their bodies than good. They are FORCED to retire OR, AS YOU SAY, move into another performing art.

  • I don’t think wushu will ever get mainstream

  • acceptance here,

~~~~~> Well your short sighted.

especially if you consider that in
  • china, Where they have the talent and the funding
  • (and well organized tournaments), but you ask anyone
  • on the street their favorite wushu athlete and they
  • say Jet Li or they change the subject to Yao Ming.

~~~~~~> That because YAO AND LI….. Make more “MONEY”—–> HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!! HELL, YOU DON’T SEE YAO PLAYING BALL IN CHINA…

~~~~>And in China, the average citizen is more concerned about finding a job and feeding their family. I’ll tell you what though…THROW SOME PRIZE MONEY IN THE athletic MIX, and SEE WHAT will happen.

  • How else are the stands going to get filled up?
    ~~~~~~~~~>Reach out into all of your local communities, athletic, performance, educational, and city hall, restaurants, parks and recreational, EVERYONE!!

    Maybe mainstream acceptance is a lofty goal, but we need a

  • niche greater than our parents and friends to come
  • out and cheer.
    ~~~~~>YES, IT’S ADVERTIZING/PUBLIC RELATIONS.You knoN that nifty little tool businesses use to promote their product.

    Let me ask you,

    How many ADVERTIZING/PUBLIC RELATIONS are sitting in a college Wushu competition stands?

    How many of them are sitting in a national Wushu competition stands?

    How many Wushu competitors PARENTS and/OR FRIENDS ARE RELATED OR MARRIED TOO OR KNOW SOMEONE IN ADVERTIZING/PUBLIC RELATIONS OR ANY FIELD THAT AN ASSIST THEIR CHILD IN EXPERIENCING THE BEST OUR SPORT CAN OFFER?

“YOU” DON’T know because PROMOTERS DON’T FOCUS ON PARENTS, SPECTATORS, OR FRIENDS THAT COME OUT TOO CHEER for their child or their friend.

  • Even that acceptance isn’t gonna be had by throwing
  • money at it.
    ~~~~~~>Yes it will! HAVE YOU EVER MISSED A COMPETITION BECAUSE YOU COULDN’T AFFORD IT!!
    Money will give students and low-income families the opportunity TO EXPERIENCE MORE.
    Money will give that struggling world-class athlete an opportunity to participate in something they LOVE! Money will motivate top athletes to train harder and most of all ATTEND every national competition.

    AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST…
    WHEN A KID, RETURNS HOME AFTER COMPETITION

    THEIR FRIENDS ASK THEM IF THEY WON

    THEN THEY ASK, “WHAT DID YOU WIN?”

    In a world where money talks and bullshit walks (…and kids know this) Do you really think we can hold his or her attention after 3 years of the same ol boring, silly little piece of fake gold, silver, or bronze metal. This teaches children that if you work hard in the real world you’ll get a cheap reward.

    Nor is bribing the best to come show

  • off. Especially in the long term. If we want to
  • promote wushu the effective way is to get people
  • (well, kids) into it.
    ~~~~~>Yes and know, kids are great for the future, BUT THEIR EFFECT WON’T PRODUCE FOR AT LEAST 5-7 years.

    Start ‘em off young, I loved the idea of the summer camp — now lets breed a new generation of coaches and who can organize proper and do things right. (props for Jeff and Co. for helping that thing out, BTW)

~~~>YES, SUMMER CAMPS, > DAYCARE WUSHU PROGRAMS, AFTERSCHOOL WUSHU PROGRAMS AND YOUTH RECREATION CENTER WUSHU PROGRAMS ALL ARE GREAT IDEAS THAT WORK. “Especially if you host a mini performance and/or competition at the end of the program.”


– Hrmmm, maybe we need some bboy-style wushu battles.

– just compete for respect! =)

WE HAVE A B-BOY COMPETITION IN NYC''' see CONTACT THE AMERICAN WUSHU SOCIETY.

JavonneOf course if you have gotten this far you could say calling me a clown was in response to the "marry her" comment, but I was honestly trying to joke around. Weather or not witty banter was good in this situation is up for debate -- yeah, it's hard to joke around with out becoming trite and busting out the "lol!!! =) ;P  Hehehehe" stuff. <joke> maybe I will star making up fake html tags </joke>